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Posted on 9/1/24 at 4:08 pm to TigerIron
quote:
A big chunk of Christians don't / didn't believe in free will, either.
saying we have no ability in our own human nature to choose God is not the same as saying we have no free will.
Reducing 1000s of volumes/years of scholarship and thought on this topic to a stupid PT post is stupid.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 4:10 pm to Flats
quote:
Same way someone like Michael Shermer does.
This Michael Shermer?
"As an example consider the following thought experiment. John Doe is an exceptionally moral person who is happily married to Jane doe. The chances of John ever cheating on Jane is close to zero. But the odds are not zero because John is human, so let’s say—for the sake of argument—that John has a one-night stand while on the road and Jane finds out. How does John account for his actions? Does he, pace the standard deterministic explanation for human behavior, say something like this to Jane?
Honey, my will is simply not of my own making. My thoughts and intentions emerged from background causes of which I am unaware and over which I exert no conscious control. I do not have the freedom you think I have. I could not have done otherwise…
Could John even finish the thought before the stinging slap of Jane’s hand across his face terminated the rationalization?
If free will is the power to do otherwise, both John and Jane know that, of course, he could have done otherwise, and she reminds him that should those circumstances arise again he damn well better make the right choice…or else. That act to choose to do the right thing…or the wrong thing…is what most of us mean by free will. In this sense I strongly suspect that deep down most determinists are compatibilists when it comes to actually living their lives instead of running thought experiments. And except for those extreme cases of mental illness, chemical addiction, or brain damage, we all have this type of freedom. Our choices may be part of the determined causal net of the universe, but they are still our choices that we make and we should be held accountable for them.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 4:11 pm to Wednesday
quote:
Do Muslims believe in free will?
If it is written then it will be. If it is not written then it will not be.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 4:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
That phrasing is probably wrong - my understanding of their belief is that they can make their own decisions, but God already knows what the decision will be. Then he’ll do what needs to be done on the day of judgment.
Unfortunately my source was from googling this for a few weeks and being frustrated that I can’t find some kind of published work on the topic. I thought that maybe some of you Baws who were actually educated on the topic could point me in the correct direction so I could learn more. I’m not even trying to make any moral judgment on it bc honestly, I don’t have enough knowledge/ info to form one.
If I am reading the view right, it just seems to me to be a fatalistic philosophy and the same would go for John Calvin, and other “predestination” philosophy since other people have brought him up. I hope it’s not what they believe, but if it is- it sure explains a lot.
Examples
ALISLAM.com
Predestination and Islam
Unfortunately my source was from googling this for a few weeks and being frustrated that I can’t find some kind of published work on the topic. I thought that maybe some of you Baws who were actually educated on the topic could point me in the correct direction so I could learn more. I’m not even trying to make any moral judgment on it bc honestly, I don’t have enough knowledge/ info to form one.
If I am reading the view right, it just seems to me to be a fatalistic philosophy and the same would go for John Calvin, and other “predestination” philosophy since other people have brought him up. I hope it’s not what they believe, but if it is- it sure explains a lot.
Examples
ALISLAM.com
Predestination and Islam
Posted on 9/1/24 at 4:20 pm to Wednesday
What do you call a guy with a ham on his head?
Posted on 9/1/24 at 4:28 pm to Azkiger
quote:
compatibilists
What’s a compatibilist?
Posted on 9/1/24 at 4:29 pm to Wednesday
quote:
What’s a compatibilist?
Someone who thinks that free will and a deterministic universe are compatible. Through what means likely differs from person to person, but the end result would be a mechanism by which both can exist in the same reality.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 8:47 pm to Azkiger
quote:
This Michael Shermer?
Probably. He stated flat-out in a discussion (maybe a debate) that he didn’t see how free will is possible given a purely material universe.
It’s not surprising to see him flip-flop but it’s also immaterial. I mentioned his name only because I know you probably have a similar worldview. The argument rests on the logic, not an appeal to authority.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 8:50 pm to Wednesday
There are some Christians who believe everything is controlled by God’s will.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 9:21 pm to Flats
quote:
It’s not surprising to see him flip-flop but it’s also immaterial.
How is that a flip flop?
Just because you personally cannot see how something can occur, doesn't mean you believe it's not occurring.
Back to what I said previously. Not believe in, and seeing no evidence for, are two different stances.
quote:
The argument rests on the logic
Sure, but just because something seems inconceivable doesn't mean it's necessarily not possible.
Your argument only shows a lack of understanding, something that's been filled in by knowledge thousands and thousands of times throughout human history. Who's to say the same won't happen here?
Posted on 9/2/24 at 8:16 am to Wednesday
quote:
Do Muslims believe in free will?
Just like Christians, their scriptures state that God is in control of everything and he knows everyone before they are formed in the womb and he knows all the decisions we are going to make and he has already decided who will go to heaven/paradise and who will not.
In my opinion, any Christian or Muslim believing in free will is ignorant of their scriptures or who just disagrees with their scriptures.
Muslims are cut from the same cloth as Christians, but not the ones you might be thinking of. Islam descended from a sect of Torah-observant (not Pauline/Gentile) Christians. The message of Islam is that they Torah and the Gospel are revealed by the prophets including Jesus, but that the message was corrupted, and that Mohammed gave the final correction.
ETA: Many Christians long ago didn’t believe Jesus died on a cross. They thought Jesus was too righteous to be killed in such a manner, and that like Enoch and Elijah Jesus was whisked away to heaven. There are also some Christian stories of Jesus as a child, such as the one where he makes a bird out of clay and then breathes into it and it turns into a real bird and flies away. Those stories are preserved in some of the gospels found in Nag Hammadi Egypt, and are also preserved in the Quran.
The predestination ideas can be found in the Torah, and among other books of the prophets. It’s all over Paul’s letters too. Predestination was a very common idea, because they all believed God was in complete control and was responsible for everything including everything good and everything bad (Isaiah 45:7).
This post was edited on 9/2/24 at 8:46 am
Posted on 9/2/24 at 9:05 am to VOR
quote:
There are some Christians who believe everything is controlled by God’s will.
Fact... MTG, Boebert, etc.
Posted on 9/2/24 at 9:15 am to Wednesday
The free will question spans across multiple religions.
God is all powerful and knows all things. God created all things.
Therefore God knew all of your events and choices when he created you. By what magic could you make your life come out any different than God intended?
God is all powerful and knows all things. God created all things.
Therefore God knew all of your events and choices when he created you. By what magic could you make your life come out any different than God intended?
Posted on 9/2/24 at 9:41 am to RandySavage
quote:John Calvin himself believed in Free Will. There are some Calvin Protestants that believe all is predestined and lack free will. Can't tell you how large or small that is. Didn't the Presbyterian Church split over predestination among other things? I think FooManChoo is Presb so maybe he can jump up in here and straighten this thing out.
I've been doing a lot of reading on this lately and it's not as small as you think, or at least as i thought. There are a lot of very respected pastors and theologians who are Calvinist
Posted on 9/3/24 at 3:10 pm to Diamondawg
Calvin definitely didn't believe in free will, at least not actual free will. He may have spun the meaning to make it seem like he did, but he didn't.
Posted on 9/3/24 at 4:26 pm to Wednesday
They believe in whatever is convenient at the time.
Posted on 9/3/24 at 4:30 pm to Wednesday
Most Christians I talk to either don’t believe in it or don’t understand it.
Posted on 9/3/24 at 5:14 pm to Wednesday
try reading Michener's The Tell for a historical perspective.
My 20. years of work in the Middle East and far east, I found they were best characterized by being world class traders/negotiators. A small win was just as great an accomplishment as a large one. Ethics were not observed, and total distrust of the person across the table was evident every day. Negotiating was a blood sport. Allah's will is there and utilized continually to unbalance the trading. Try planning a business dinner in Houston with a visiting delegation.
There are a lot of really uneducated folk [and I mean less than3rd. grade] in that part of the world and mysticism is real.
My 20. years of work in the Middle East and far east, I found they were best characterized by being world class traders/negotiators. A small win was just as great an accomplishment as a large one. Ethics were not observed, and total distrust of the person across the table was evident every day. Negotiating was a blood sport. Allah's will is there and utilized continually to unbalance the trading. Try planning a business dinner in Houston with a visiting delegation.
There are a lot of really uneducated folk [and I mean less than3rd. grade] in that part of the world and mysticism is real.
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