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re: 12th Grade Girls Are Far Less Likely Than Boys To Say They Want To Get Married Someday
Posted on 1/15/26 at 3:15 am to NC_Tigah
Posted on 1/15/26 at 3:15 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Cubbies is a tough egg to crack in terms of male humanity.
There are logical explanations for this that have nothing to do with academic theories and everything to do with the way our society is structured.
Even so, I spend every day fixing systems I didn’t break that coincidentally harm men most profoundly. I see the dignity in all humans (even men!). I just want this reciprocated.
2
Posted on 1/15/26 at 3:28 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Women don’t want to date or marry men? Obviously they need to lower their expectations of men and marriage.
So women are wanting to date women?
That's looks a lot like they are emulating men.
Posted on 1/15/26 at 6:03 am to 4cubbies
quote:Social structure evolves around stability. As with any evolutionary premise, stronger social contructs overtake weaker ones. Critical theory denies that. Instead, critical theory assumes societal manipulation/oppression, rather than natural selection, as society's foundational basis.
There are logical explanations for this that have nothing to do with academic theories and everything to do with the way our society is structured.
E.g., Social structure for most of history held childbirth as a positive hope, and out-of-wedlock pregnancy as shameful. Those structures have changed. Now the premises of marriage and childbirth are no longer tightly interlocked. Out-of-wedlock pregnancy is deemed more acceptable. As a result, almost unbelievably, young females with no expectations for marriage say they'd like to have kids, and they say so at a higher percentage than do those who expect to get married. Feminists would hail that attitude as laudatory.
Being "unburdened by the past" is core to critical theory.
So when the eventual new cohort of single moms re-establish that one of the fastest, most certain paths to poverty is heading a single-parent household, feminists will contrive some new "modern" rethought explanation. Once again it will hold male dehumanized oppressors as somehow culpable. The inherent advantages of marriage will be ignored. Socialists will revel in the dependency single-motherhood creates on their more successful married brethren.
As the saying goes,"those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Accordingly, critical feminist pedagogy strives to destroy intellectual curiosity among its mentees, limiting the risk of learning from history and of being burdened by the past.
Posted on 1/15/26 at 6:26 am to 4cubbies
quote:There are several assumptions in that small set of words.
I spend every day fixing systems I didn’t break
Posted on 1/15/26 at 8:15 am to 4cubbies
quote:I didn’t use the word “good”. I am speaking to the standards that God has set and whether or not women are acting consistently with that standard. There is also a standard for men that many men are not living up to, but I wasn’t addressing them at the time.
The implication here is that women who are frustrated by the imbalances in many marriages aren’t “good women,” or don’t respect God.
I don’t know what you mean by “imbalance” and what you are concerned about being imbalanced, because I believe there may be an imbalance of authority in a marriage (the husband should have the final say) while having a balance of love, respect, and sacrifice towards one another.
quote:Personal happiness is not the Christian standard for a good marriage, though if both husband and wife are submitting to God and acting as the should, it should result in an abundance of happiness.
My husband is very happy and at least tells me how lucky he is to be married to me. I guess it’s possible that he constantly lies to me but what would the point of that be? If either of us was miserable, our life would look very different and probably wouldn’t include kids ranging in age from 1 to almost 9 years old. My frustration points don’t make me a bad wife or mother. These frustration points are societal and cultural, not individual, which is why I’m discussing them here.
Societal and cultural standards are subjective and ultimately arbitrary. It’s why it is important to ground our standard for right and wrong on the unchanging moral standard of God’s own character, as expressed in the 10 commandments. It makes no sense to get frustrated at someone’s opinion of the best vacuum cleaner or SUV, but you seem to be frustrated at what others believe is good based on their own opinions, which are in conflict with your own opinions.
quote:Sin is not something that only exists in one sex or the other. Everyone sins and is prone to do so, and without God’s law and Spirit through Jesus Christ, sin can certainly rule all kinds of relationships, causing misery and destruction of all kinds.
Again, I have a good husband. Even when women have good husbands, these marital imbalances I’ve discussed often persist to the detriment of women.
There are men who abuse their God-given authority and use it to be tyrants in their homes against their wife and children. There are women who do not submit willingly to their husbands and rule over them like a child.
The Christian model for marriage is mutual submission and sacrifice. The husband is the decision-maker but values his wife’s opinions and desires and acts in her best interest, including in sacrificing his own wants and needs for her. The wife respects her husband and submits to his decisions out of love for God and for him.
When either party acts selfishly and does not obey God in marriage, there will be sinful imbalance.
Posted on 1/15/26 at 11:19 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Social structure evolves around stability.
I audibly laughed upon reading this. Social structures evolve around power.
If you are married (pun intended ) to the idea that social structures evolve around stability - women foregoing marriage is a result of the perceived lack of stability marriage provides them.
quote:
E.g., Social structure for most of history held childbirth as a positive hope, and out-of-wedlock pregnancy as shameful. Those structures have changed. Now the premises of marriage and childbirth are no longer tightly interlocked. Out-of-wedlock pregnancy is deemed more acceptable. As a result, almost unbelievably, young females with no expectations for marriage say they'd like to have kids, and they say so at a higher percentage than do those who expect to get married. Feminists would hail that attitude as laudatory.
The decoupling of marriage and childbirth is not the result of feminists celebrating instability. It is a rational adaptation to economic reality. Marriage has become less reliable as an institution for women in terms of financial security, labor sharing, and long-term stability. At the same time, women still want children. Interpreting that as ideological confusion rather than pragmatic reasoning is needless over-intellectualization.
People have sex outside of marriage. Sometimes that sex results in pregnancies. Men and women are often choosing not to marry in response to unplanned pregnancies. This has occurred alongside declining economic returns to marriage, reduced social enforcement of male obligation, and the erosion of marriage as a mechanism for risk pooling. This is a cultural shift, not a theoretical one pioneered by feminists.
Posted on 1/15/26 at 11:19 am to 4cubbies
quote:
You are implying that the existence of the WNBA proves most women consume WNBA content. I’ve never watched a WNBA game nor have I had the desire to study it in any way. I imagine that’s true for most of the world. What kind of strong hold do you suppose the WNBA has on American culture?
It's the point that it's seen as female empowerment or as "successful," when it loses money and is propped by NBA dollars. But it is made "a thing," that can really stand on it's own. It's not a business, it's a charity.
quote:
we live in a capitalist society. Labor is valued through wages. Labor that does not produce wages is not valued. Domestic labor is gendered and provided for free within families.
But see, this whole entire reduction of familial life as both labor and a think that should be equated and monetized akin to a job...
It's just so cold. That's not what marriage is.
quote:
No one is claiming this here. I’m arguing that men benefit far more than women benefit from marriage.
I mean you are saying women abandoning marriage is a good thing, because it's "inequal," if they keep doing that that yeah it's failed.
quote:
Who cares if they can maximize their earning potential if they are married with kids? I care more about increasing my earning potential now that I have kids than before. I imagine most working parents care about maximizing their incomes.
quote:
managing a household and raising kids. The unpaid domestic labor they are expected to provide.
quote:
Society would need to be restructured to be less materialistic and consumption-driven.
So here is the crux of your argument. And it's the right argument to have. Arguing about 3 hours of extra labor, or "unpaid" family labor, etc. is all a smokescreen.
And you're RIGHT here.
Posted on 1/15/26 at 11:30 am to Freauxzen
quote:
I mean you are saying women abandoning marriage is a good thing
I’m not saying it’s a good thing. I’m saying it’s an understandable thing.
When most households now require two incomes, but the expectations around childcare, emotional labor, household management, and kin-keeping remain disproportionately female, marriage stops functioning as a net stabilizer for many women. It becomes a net loss.
That doesn’t make opting out admirable or deplorable. It makes it rational. People respond to incentives. When the institution no longer offers proportional returns for the labor it demands, participation declines.
I can acknowledge that outcome without celebrating it.
Posted on 1/15/26 at 11:39 am to PrattvilleTiger
quote:
SEC-sorority female
Found the problem.
Posted on 1/15/26 at 11:41 am to 4cubbies
quote:
I’m saying it’s an understandable thing.
And it is.
But not according to the data.
Only according to the a prior premise that says so, that is now over 200 years old.
Of course, anything makes sense if that's the criteria it has to conform to.
Posted on 1/15/26 at 11:43 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Marriage has become less reliable as an institution for women in terms of financial security, labor sharing, and long-term stability.
Except the data says it hasn't.
In fact, the data says in terms of financial security it's a bigger gap than it used to be for unmarried vs marrieds.
I've posted my data on the thread. I haven't seen yours on this, just the claim that there is a "lot" of "conflicting data."
Let's see it. Either that or stop claiming it.
Also, you say labor sharing is going the wrong way. Did husbands used to have less than 2% more leisure time than women?
This post was edited on 1/15/26 at 11:45 am
Posted on 1/15/26 at 12:06 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
In fact, the data says in terms of financial security it's a bigger gap than it used to be for unmarried vs marrieds.
Din ding ding.
One of the articles I linked said the marriage is wrong BECAUSE it is inequal.
cubs - If outputs for a traditional, faith-based marriage - and there is no conflicting data, they are more stable, have higher forms of happiness, economic outcomes for the family, etc. - what's the response there?
Posted on 1/15/26 at 12:08 pm to 4cubbies
quote:No ma'am.
I audibly laughed upon reading this. Social structures evolve around power.
I know that's what you've selectively sourced. But it is verifiably false. Power is a means to the end, but not the basis of it. But again, the CT oppressor thesis is dependent on it.
quote:... and there, right there, is where feminist pedagogy falls apart.
foregoing marriage is a result of the perceived lack of stability marriage provides them.
Marriage is a contractual partnership with assorted legal protections for both parties, but especially women. Why? Because as has been pointed out, a woman heading a single parent household is a fast track to domestic insecurity. Foregoing marriage in favor of a less formal relationship is like foregoing a contract in any partnership. Contractless arrangements are inherently less stable or assured.
quote:No. Feminists don't celebrate instability. They celebrate acquisition of power through the instability they create.
The decoupling of marriage and childbirth is not the result of feminists celebrating instability.
quote:Not ideological, but rather analytic and economic confusion. It's indicative of a lack of self-responsible foresight. Living for today with little regard for tomorrow's consequences.
Interpreting that as ideological confusion
quote:This is a cultural shift. It is backed by, engineered by, encouraged by, and defended by feminists.
This is a cultural shift, not a theoretical one pioneered by feminists.
This post was edited on 1/15/26 at 12:16 pm
Posted on 1/15/26 at 12:19 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Women don’t want to date or marry men? Obviously they need to lower their expectations of men and marriage. That seems to be the consensus here.
Or they could become rational, thoughtful, more self-aware and a shite ton less self-centered.
Posted on 1/15/26 at 12:21 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
The decoupling of marriage and childbirth is not the result of feminists celebrating instability. It is a rational adaptation to economic reality. Marriage has become less reliable as an institution for women in terms of financial security, labor sharing, and long-term stability. At the same time, women still want children. Interpreting that as ideological confusion rather than pragmatic reasoning is needless over-intellectualization.
Why would childbirth out of wedlock seem to be undesirable throughout history?
What damage is done to society by this "decoupling" of marriage?
Posted on 1/15/26 at 2:32 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
cubs - If outputs for a traditional, faith-based marriage - and there is no conflicting data, they are more stable, have higher forms of happiness, economic outcomes for the family, etc. - what's the response there?
I'm not arguing that marriage is horrible and oppressive and should be eradicated in all forms.
I'm literally in one of the marriages you're describing. I do wonder if or what overlapping factors could be credited with some of this stability and economic outcomes, like educational attainment and socioeconomic status.
I also wonder how it's possible for me to have such a starkly different perception of modern marriage than the people who have been posting in this thread. I went to my daughter's school earlier today to shop with her at the book fair. While I was in the library waiting for her class to get there, I ran into a mom I knew who was volunteering. She asked me how things have been since adding a third kid. I told her we were keeping our heads above water but the baby kind of put a strain on our marriage for a while. She immediately went into details about how she was ready to walk away from her own marriage because her husband wasn't pulling his weight in 2020 and only stuck around because she didn't want to pay him child support. Fortunately, she said that things are much better for them now. It's wild to me that I can't even walk out of the house without tripping over a woman who is or has been dissatisfied with imbalances in her marriage and the (presumed) husband contributors here are in utter disbelief that I'm even suggesting such a thing.
Posted on 1/15/26 at 2:46 pm to The Pirate King
quote:
men are the worst.
I mean, they do. But then again most people are the worst. I don’t see an uptick in the lesbian population either. Most people are just fricking miserable
Posted on 1/15/26 at 2:59 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
I know that's what you've selectively sourced
You don't know that. You’re assuming that in bad faith because it’s easier than engaging the substance of the argument.
quote:
But it is verifiably false.
Have you demonstrated that society is structured around stability rather than power? Simply asserting it doesn’t make it so.
quote:
But again, the CT oppressor thesis is dependent on it.
I'm genuinely curious how an American can argue that American society is primarily organized around stability and not power. Our institutions are explicitly built around power: who votes, who owns, who polices, who litigates, who sets wages, who writes laws. Stability is an outcome for some, not the organizing principle for all.
quote:Marriage is not a unilateral decision. Women don’t independently decide if, when, or whom they marry. It requires mutual consent and continued participation.
Foregoing marriage in favor of a less formal relationship is like foregoing a contract in any partnership. Contractless arrangements are inherently less stable or assured.
Posted on 1/15/26 at 3:09 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
WTF are we doing?
Now, simply poll the 12 grade virgins and see what that tells you.
Posted on 1/15/26 at 4:20 pm to 4cubbies
quote:No Cubs, I do know that. Because everything you cite on the topic is CT based.
You don't know that.
quote:Society has demonstrated it, again, and again, and again. Where in the world do you suppose "power" comes from? An unstable society?
Have you demonstrated that society is structured around stability rather than power? Simply asserting it doesn’t make it so.
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